Doing Everything Right, Still Feeling Lost (EP 134)

[0:16] Hello, everyone. Uncle Marv here, and welcome back to my unhealthy podcast, the show where we take an honest look at the habits, pressures, patterns, all the things that get in the way of living well.

[0:30] And around here, we're not pretending that we've got it all figured out. We're asking better questions, sharing real experiences, and finding practical ways to take better care of ourselves. Today, I have a guest that is going to help us talk about something that can hide behind a full calendar of convincing people that we're fine, while we're trying to be the person who gets everything done but quietly running on empty. Elke Scholz is a registered psychotherapist, expressive arts educator, and author who brings work together with mental health and creativity. And this should be an interesting conversation. Elkie, welcome to the show. Hey, thank you, Marv. And I'm going to say it's Elke.

[1:20] Elke, yeah. Yeah. It's okay. Let's just do that right at the beginning. So I love it. Then let me say Elkie for all this time. No, not the last time. No, no, I don't think so. All right. We were good. Yeah. So it's all good. Okay. So let's go ahead and begin with how did you come to

[1:45] combine all of these things? Because I don't think we normally associate, you know, psychotherapy and expressive arts and all that stuff together. So how did you come to combine all of these things? Actually, it's very organic. Yeah. And I think part of it, too, is my own experience of being starved creatively.

[2:08] My dad was a high school teacher, and he just thought it was best to be academic. And I am so not academic. I mean, my secret sauce is in empathy and the soft skills. And yeah, I get that. And so, however, facts like history, geography.

[2:34] You know, physics, electricity, or, you know, these algorithms and math, like that was just, I would just memorize and regurgitate. So for me, it was this journey of trying to discover where did I fit in. And one of the things that, and I'm not sure I shared it with you, is that I didn't feel like living as a teenager. And I thought, you know, what's the point? And I didn't understand why I felt like that until I took a drama course and also a creative writing course in grade 11. And those two teachers I attribute with saving my life because they really showed me there was another way to live, another way to enjoy life. And that started this path of finding the arts and pursuing that. And what I noticed was, was that, as I remember, I was in my 20s and living in a small town in King Carden, and there was one art teacher, and I hounded her.

[3:49] I think I phoned her every week, and, when are you giving another calligraphy course? When are you doing another art course? And she finally, I think she got tired of me calling, and she said, fine, I'm going to do one. And I just, I was so starved. I was just like inhaling that. And what happened, though, is she didn't want to teach. So this crazy kind of journey is she asked me, she said, I want you to take over my classes. And I went, what? Because I honestly it was never on my plate it wasn't something I dreamed about I thought I'd live you know in a um a little house a picket fence have three kids, that's what I thought my life was going to be and so I just said yes, and she helped me and what I noticed though and this was where it kind of gets me to this journey is my students did really really well, and I wanted to know why I wanted to know what was it that they were succeeding and why was that so good and so my brain, I think has always been a philosophical and psychological brain.

[5:07] Now so all right that sounds like there's a pretty big gap from, what you started out believing about yourself not wanting to live and then all of a sudden teaching classes so i want to go back because i can't let you just throw that out there without at least asking me, what was going on in your life as a teenager that you were saying you know what this sucks, Well, I'm going to school, and I typically love learning. I was a student and a child that loved to do crafts. My mom said I started knitting at age three. I didn't believe her, but I still have things I made when I was five. And you look at it, and you just go, okay, a five. And I did do that, I remember. And so.

[5:57] Ask me the question again, because I got lost in that memory. Hey, you went even earlier. Yeah, I did. I wanted to understand what was happening, during your teenage years that you're saying you didn't want to go on.

[6:13] Yeah, so it wasn't an easy household. My dad being, he drank a lot. and um both my parents were children in the war, so that um you know they did their best for sure, and i was a kid where i just wanted to be out of the house so i would go cycling i mean i wasn't a bad kid i just would just be outside and i would cycle all I d cycle i would cycle all day long just to be outside and be away because i didn't want to be in trouble, and i didn't like the tension so, so then when I got into high school um and I just the option to take the arts wasn't there, and so um, so you weren't active in sports or clubs or anything like that just were you lonely.

[7:13] I think I was just odd. I was one of those weird kids. And the interesting thing is I was never bullied, not as a child from my school friends and not in high school. There was this thing that happened in grade seven. I remember that's where kids start separating and getting into groups. And there was this birthday party. I was invited, but some other girls weren't. And I said, well, how come they're not invited? And they said, well, we don't want them there. And I went, then I don't want to come. And it wasn't that I didn't want to be there. I did. But I just remember that was the split in my social world. And then when I got to high school, I heard the boys, the way they were talking about the girls at a party, and I went, nope, not going to be me. I don't want to be there and be talked like that. So I was fine kind of being by myself, and, Maybe that wasn't good. I'm an introvert and not really, I didn't really have anybody saying, hey, it's not good for you.

[8:28] I did end up going to judo. I did study judo and I love that. So that was good for me. but yeah I was kind of this solitary kid and then because I was pushed into this academic place.

[8:47] And this expectation like I just studied so hard and then I would forget everything afterwards because it didn't make sense to me like I just went why am I remembering these things when I'm not going to ever use them and so anything practical once it's in the nugget it's not leaving so um.

[9:07] And i never i don't know i just no one ever said that i wasn't university material however i felt that my brothers um, they would memorize they had photographic minds they just remember stuff they never had to study, but i did and so when i saw that i kind of thought maybe something was wrong with me which is not true at all but as a kid you make up these things right so what was the actual art that you were doing, and how did you get so good to the point that the teacher said takeover, Oh, calligraphy, which is the art of beautiful handwriting with a broad-edge nib. And I had a girlfriend in high school, and I followed her around like a puppy, actually, because she was artistic, and she could do this broad-edge pen stuff. So I even went, I still remember the store I went to buy a nib holder and this broad-edge pen. And I probably still have, not the nib, but certainly the holder. And I just, I was fascinated with it and I would play with it. So then when I ended up in this little town and heard this woman taught that, I was, like I said, I was.

[10:32] Now, was it something that you could actually use? Because I do know that, you know, telegraphy, a lot of times it's not necessarily art by itself, but it can be used in art pieces and there's always people looking, you know, wedding imitations and those sort of things. Were you, were you doing that sort of stuff with it or? Yep. All of the above. Yeah. I, um, I started taking courses in Toronto. I started exploring more styles. I actually took a university course in, in it. And then what's interesting about calligraphy, and this is also about handwriting, which not many people teach, and the kids don't learn handwriting anymore. When you learn calligraphy, you're learning spatial, you're learning perspective, and that does shape how you look into the world. And it's fascinating because I would, I started a sign painting business. Again, not something I signed up for, but being in this small town, one of the, our sign painter, which I learned later was sick in the hospital and, And I was working for a cleaning service at night, and one of the businessmen saw me cross the street, and I still remember that, and he said, I need you to come in.

[11:56] And I went, okay. And he said, can you do the lettering for my dealership? And that friend that was the artist, she said, always say yes and figure it out later. So I remember that. And so I said, sure. And I walked out of there and went, what have I just agreed to?

[12:15] So, again, nothing I planned, yet it turned out really super well. Interesting. All right, so now I'm trying to map this path here. So you have a little, you know, difficult home life.

[12:30] You're getting into the arts of calligraphy. You actually start to, I'm going to use the phrase empathize with others who were being excluded and stuff. Um, tell me if I'm right or wrong and how that kind of moved you into, uh, being a psychotherapist.

[12:51] Yeah. And I, I understand the question. I do.

[12:57] But Marvin, it's not an easy answer. So I, I was one of those kids and it is part of, um, my, the psychology, it is part of psychotherapy. I was one of those kids that asked questions over and over again about everything. And to a point where if I ever got a job, I would just tell the employer ahead of time, I said, just so you know, I will probably bug the crap out of you. Cause I'm going to ask you every single question at least once, and then you won't hear from me, but I'll do the job really great. And so part of that is about asking questions, about being curious. And why psychotherapy? What happened is, you're right about that empathy, is I think I have it naturally because all those people are, didn't treat me badly. It was my choice. And even the friends that were not included.

[14:02] I had relationships with. And so I didn't separate people. I didn't judge people. And keep going through that path is even when I started teaching, I never judged anybody. And what I was learning, and this comes to the psychotherapy part, and I'll try and edit it, is I had this fascination of what made people successful. What was it that helped them accelerate quickly, and that also helped them heal and change the view of their world? And that always pleased me is when someone did really well when they succeeded that excited me and so, And actually, I wrote a book. Then afterwards, I went back to university to get a degree for psychotherapy. So it was, I didn't do it in order.

[15:07] What would inspire you to write a book before you even did the academic part? I know. So even as a kid, I would write. And I wrote poetry. And English is not my first language. So that is even a little bit, you know, who knows. And the other piece, I'm slightly dyslexic. So I don't know, does that make me a poet? I don't know. I always knew I would write a book, though I didn't know what kind of book. So I guess I dropped out of the sky thinking that I'm going to write a book one day even as a kid I knew that it was in the back of my mind so what happened is, I'd have these great conversations with the people I was, sharing art with and I can tell you so many so, lots of great stories and what I would do is I'd go back and write and I would also put them on the computer And sometimes I was published. I've been published quite a bit in magazines and newspapers when we had newspapers.

[16:17] And then one day there was over 300 pages. And I went, okay, there's a book. And so that's how that, how, and I thought that is the book. And it was about coming back to your passions, feeling alive, thriving, and using the arts. And the interesting part is I published that book first, then got into expressive arts and got my degree in expressive arts. And that's not unusual. There's, I met other authors, experts. In Annapolis University, she did the same thing. So we were these islands, and then we came to a degree and went, oh my gosh, there's a degree about this. There's actually science behind it. So we were experiencing why it was successful and writing about it. And then we met a whole university plus. Oh. Yeah, it's a bit, yeah. So was that first book, was that the Love in Your Life? Yeah, it's in its third edition and it's translated, yeah. Okay. So when you went back to school, what was the driving motivation and what did you plan to do? Because I'm going to assume it wasn't what you ended up doing. Yeah.

[17:46] Well, at that point, what happened was, so I had written the book, and my life wasn't going well, and I didn't know it at the time, but I was living in poverty. And the interesting thing, Marv, is I never thought I was poor until after I came out of that. And I realized, oh, this is why I'm getting government grant money for my kids.

[18:14] I anyways I know it's probably um anyways I it was a mindset and I think I always have felt lucky I've always felt protected did I worry a lot sure I did I wasn't always confident but my life wasn't going well and I struggled with relationships and I just went I got to do something different and our local college, gave this creativity workshop and it worked out that I could take it. It was a postgraduate, so I had to compete for that. And I was awarded a grant, and I was also awarded a bachelor's for all the work that I had done. And when I went there, it was one of those things, I call it a thunderbolt, and that is actually a Greek term, is like you're like I could feel my whole life just boom coming to, a grounded solidness I knew I was in the right place and the teacher in front of me she said welcome home you're home, and yeah I mean I got tears in my eyes telling you that because I don't never forget that moment.

[19:29] Yeah, it is a wow. And it changed my life. And I also knew and I didn't I learned then there was a degree and I just went, seriously, I can do this. I can actually do it because I never thought I could go to university. I just went, I can't regurgitate facts, but I didn't know any different. No one sat there and said, you know, no one counseled me or said, hey, there's a different way and these things might fit you better. I think student success counselors nowadays are a little more in tune. You know, I didn't have that support.

[20:13] Well, I mean, you talk about being from a small town. You talk about, you know, going into this area of arts where there weren't a whole lot of people, one art teacher in your area there. So it sounds like you kind of did what you needed to do and turned out to be okay. But I'm trying to figure out now, where was the pivotal point where you thought, you know, I can use this to help others?

[20:46] I think actually, Mark, I've been like that. I've always wanted to help people. And even though sometimes things weren't so easy for me, I always felt like I've been of service, that my life is about purpose and service. And a long time ago, my purpose is to make it easier for somebody else if I can do that. So that's always been in my core, my center. And so, you know, when I learned something and then I would see someone struggling, my brain, the way my brain works is it goes, there's an easier way. And.

[21:35] I can just figure that out. And I would. And then I would say, hey, do it this way. Like today, I'll tell you a fun story. Today, I have a gardener. She helps me. She's so sweet. And we were bringing some plants in. And I said, I don't know. You may already know this. But I just learned something about these tall grasses. And I said, I was talking to my neighbor. And he ties them up first before he cuts them. And she just lit up. We both were laughing and we're going, she goes, oh my gosh, that's so easy. I said, I know, crazy. And she works for a company and she said, you know what? I'm going to tell, I'm going to tell, like we have properties and it's been so hard. It's frustrating. And I said, I know, killer, right? And she said, unbelievable. And we were laughing about it. And to me, that, you know, was it therapy? No. So, however, and I'm going to tell my yard guy that's going to cut down the big grasses and I know it's going to change his business. So, and I just thought, you know, it made me happy because so many people are going to benefit from that.

[22:46] And it's not an ego thing. It's just who I am. And I love that. And I think as I was moving along in this journey, and especially with the arts, what I was learning is so many people had similar experiences where they wanted to be creative, but they thought they weren't.

[23:06] And so that got me on this journey is who's creative and who isn't and why. And really, it's just a belief. If you think you're creative, you are. That's it. That's it. There's books on it. there's all kinds of stuff on it. And so for me, helping people discover that and then them flying off and, You know, so many people just following their dreams. That makes me happy. So let me make sure at least I mention your website, helpersouls.com. I'm going to have that link in there. And of course, you've got all of your books there, the resources.

[23:55] And your homepage right now talks about you know, people being exhausted anxious running on empty and that's kind of, I guess where part of the focus is now but it sounds like when you started this journey it wasn't about that you just talked about helping people realize that they are creative when they're not, what were some of the early things that you started to help people with when you made that switch? Well, part of it was people's belief that they couldn't draw. And that's such a misnomer. Like people think if they can't sit down and draw something perfectly that they can't. And that's not even true. I would do a thing and say, I guarantee, I would do talks and say, I'll guarantee if you can tie your shoes and write your name, catch a ball, I guarantee you, I can teach you how to draw. And I had people take me up on it. And of course, within three to four sessions, they'd come back and go, oh my gosh, I'm actually drawing. And it looks like it's supposed to.

[25:05] So that was a beginning. And then again, because what happens, and it sounds... What happens is when we get that perspective, whether it's being able to draw, it gives you hope and you see the earth, you see the planet in a different way. And how that relates to healing is it does heal us because nature heals us. I mean, that's like the most simple, you know, equation from A to D, I suppose, or A to E or F or whatever. Um, and then of course we, we make it complicated and I don't mean that in a negative way, but life happens and it gets complicated. And so, um, following the expressive art route naturally went into psychology and that fascination that, and, and then it now is about brain health and science. So that's, so people exhausted, the reason you do get exhausted is you're not following your passion. And that's, it may sound that those aren't connected, they are, is when you're passionate, you have energy.

[26:21] So part of going along with following your passion is being happy in your life and what you what you do, yeah in all of the parts of your journey i mean did you said you didn't realize you were poor until later but um were you happy did you realize that you were happy during all of that time um, not always i think i sometimes i struggled with depression i mean um i had to sort through a lot this it wasn't magical this journey it and i think there's, There is a belief in me that always believed there was a better way.

[27:05] And where that came from is probably debatable. But I always thought there was something better. And somehow my curious mind was, you know, like I look outside and it's beautiful and sunny and fall leaves. And I didn't understand my struggle. Maybe that's what was happening. And there was this constant... Curiosity, I think, and striving for something better, which is why I went back to school, because I thought, I've got to change my life. So finally, I invested in myself.

[27:50] And those things did bring, I would say, an internal contentment. Maybe not always an external happiness, if that even make sense. So yeah, it wasn't, and it was trying to fix some of that torment that I felt of, you know, once I got a taste of, wait a minute, this could be really cool, these things lined up.

[28:20] I then trusted that. Because I don't know if you've ever heard, have you ever heard of a thunderbolt? Like, um, it's like this energy just lines up in your body. Like I learned, I don't even know where I learned that from, but someone says, you don't question it, follow it. And it'll always work out. And it does. You don't get many in your life, but they're really strong. They're like these hell yeses that just goes, yeah. Like, have you ever had that?

[28:49] I don't know that I've ever identified it as a thunderbolt, but I do understand that there are signs that we can either see or not see and you know most of the time, at least the way i think about it is most of the time we see the sign we just have to make a choice as to whether or not we're going to follow it, Um, and I guess from the way that you're explaining it is that sign would come at a perfect time for you to not only recognize it, but to embrace it and realize that that is what I'm supposed to do. And that, that comes across as a feeling that is non-negotiable, I guess is the way that I understand. Yeah. And what you're saying too, is that's a feeling. it's not something that you could describe like, like i know you can see me but maybe and listeners can't but it's like this lining up of, this this solidness and groundedness of certainty that um is a blessing because when you're in this place of i don't know i don't know that's torture but when you feel this certainty um.

[30:04] For some reason i knew i could follow it and it and it does turn out so if you ever feel that kind of certainty is go with it like it's not always a head thing um like you can think yourself out of lots of stuff, well yeah i mean you can obviously we can always find the practical reasons, not to do something yeah sometimes you just you just gotta follow your gut, yeah that's yeah that's what it's like that for sure like you just follow it.

[30:39] And that's why I went to university. And I'll tell you, that didn't come smoothly. I crashed up my car. I lost a gold necklace that was for my grandfather. I lost a camera that I put on my car that I forgot I put it there and drove away. I mean, it didn't hurt anybody and I didn't hurt myself, though, being that anxious into going a path that, um, was so new and so different, yet I just kept going back to that feeling of certainty going, you know what, you got to trust it and just do little snippets. And it's been phenomenally great. And that's why it keeps me learning more and being fascinated more. And to bring that to other people is how can you bring that passion back into your life?

[31:37] Because that's when you lose the exhaustion. That's when you become alive again.

[31:42] And thrive in this beautiful life that we have, this opportunity. It's so short, right? Yeah.

[31:53] So were these events that happened at university or after you made the decision before you went? I mean... It happened after the decision, yeah. It was just before, and I remember talking to a friend, And I said, I'm going out of my mind because this is going to cost a lot of money. And you've got to know, at the time, I didn't have money. And I knew, I think I was budgeting either, I think it was $30,000 or $60,000 to get my master's and to start this new venture. And she just said, well, you know, all these years will go by. Either you'll do it or you don't. Like the time will pass. So you have a choice. Either you're going to do this or you won't. And, you know, three or four years are going to pass. And you'll still be, you know, you'll be here as a mother. And then I went, yeah, okay. And then another friend of mine, she just said, how long is it going to take you to pay off that debt? And I said, well, probably a year or two. And she said, seriously? And I went, yeah, because it's going to totally change my income. And she goes, hello.

[33:11] Like, and actually it worked out very well because I rented my son's room. So that helped. So there were different things I did to offset some of those costs. And, yeah, I did pay off. I think it was the first two years I had paid off all my debts. So um uh yeah and so then and then the other thing i did was i just took off chunks i just went okay the school allowed you to pay one semester at a time and so that's what i did because i thought well if i quit then at least i haven't paid for the whole year, and i would just do it from September to December and i went okay and then i would just go well am i going to do it you know the rest and that's how I did it, because of my anxiety and.

[34:00] Just to, I mean, it wasn't that I was Olly Olly oxen free with the passion. Yeah.

[34:10] All right. All right, Elke. I have more questions that just popped up that I realized that we did not go down the path we thought we were going to go. And I'm glad that we decided to do this as a two-parter so we can come back and get to that. So I want to use this as the opportunity for us to take the break. Are you okay with that or do you have another car crash you want to bring up? No i could though i have stories but anyways all right so, um so in my head I m thinking that a takeaway from this conversations is that you can be doing everything that you're supposed to do, and still be connect uh disconnected from how you're actually feeling yeah and uh, sometimes the first step isn't really trying harder it's paying attention that sound does that sound fair I d say 100 very yeah beautiful thank you because it did kind of do one of those ziggy kind of turns.

[35:15] But you know what that's life i mean that's there's a lot of people that you know ran around in circles before getting to where they were supposed to be I m one of those so, all right well Elke thank you very much uh we'll go ahead and take a break here folks if you want to learn more about Elke and her work uh the links to her website books and everything will be in the show notes. And obviously we're not done. So in our next conversation, we're going to try to get a little more practical.

[35:45] Talk about how to manage some of these things, such as anxiety, making changes that stick, and exploring more about creativity and how we can help us get unstuck. So thank you to Elke, and we'll see you all soon. And until next time, remember to live healthy and be happy.